PM's on LOP - FreedomStands and KK, July 2011

http://lunaticoutpost.com/Topic-Easy-Religion-in-a-Nutshell

FreedomStands explains his/her religious and spiritual perspectives on LOP,
we start to converse, because his/her understanding of the One God is so close to mine.

Because so many hold a negative view of Islam, he/she apologizes for quoting from the Qur'an.
We end up having a lively exchange, this is the first part:









kalamity kool wrote:

No worries mate, I quote the Qur'an quite often myself, lol.

FreedomStands wrote:

I've actually been avoiding using the Qur'an to encourage people towards worshipping God since many people seem to completely shutdown upon seeing it mentioned. In the thread I've been using the Old and New Testament the most probably, with some of the Vedas thrown in for good measure! I think I only quote the Qur'an twice or something, maybe more, but its really not focused on very much throughout the thread other than in a way that uses other religions to encourage tolerance and stuff.

I pretty much only get a chance to discuss religious stuff on this forum and don't do it anywhere else. For the most part when I meet people online, I don't even mention religion usually, and send them my music and artwork instead, and make jokes and stuff.

Do you do any creative things? I love your display picture by the way! Is that some version of Cat Woman? I'd love the full version of that picture it looks great!

kalamity kool wrote:

We're all really describing the same knowledge, the same heart-felt presence..
I don't often get the chance to discuss religion either, except tonight a friend talked about how she prays for her family.
Thanks for the comment about my avatar, it was in the site catalogue,
and I have a bit of a history for cat-woman.
But, being majorly (?) a Muslim, you would probably like my old GLP avatar, in which I'm wearing a veil over half my face. I was making a statement at the time, and it also refers back to my state of waiting.

FreedomStands wrote:

Nice to chat to you, and blessings!

The veil is more cultural than strongly based in the Qur'an, it was worn by early Christians and Jews as well as Byzantine people and Greeks when they went out.

One of the important statements about the veil is the right that people should have to hide their identities or any part of their body or person that they choose to.

I generally don't agree that costumes are an important part of religion, and the Qur'an only indicates that people should cover their breasts and private parts.

People totally forget about all the depictions of Mary with the infant Jesus when getting on the case of muslims about their veils. Even in Israel, many jewish people continue to cover their hair, including women wearing veils.

My hope is to at least inspire people to pursue learning and maybe reduce their prejudices.

So many people (not you of course, I just mean other people) think religion is a costume parade, where the cultural dresses and customs of people are the whole point of the religion.

This is the case even with neo pagans or reconstructionists, who think that wearing the clothes theyve seen in depictions is more important than actually paying attention to the beliefs presented.

There have been many cultures in the world with their own unique dresses and customs, but some things around the world were generally the same. It is those things that I hope to present in my thread, especially those things found in common in religious texts and belief systems from around the world.

Those things are the belief in the Supreme God with the same attributes, the ritual of purification before worship, the gestures of worship such as bowing and prostrating, and the reverence for God as seen through the kinds of praises and references made both in and outside of worship. There are other similarities as well, but these things I mentioned were central to just about all people around the entire world at almost every period of history.

Thank you so much for your wonderful reply! I really appreciate it! Thank you also for continuing to visit the thread! Your contributions are wonderful!

 kalamity kool wrote:

Yes, we're on the same page with that



thankyou for the thread, I'm enjoying it :)

FreedomStands wrote:

I'm so glad you're enjoying it! I've moved some of your wonderful posts to the front page as well!

************

kalamity kool  wrote:

I love the music, thanks v much, I was heartily sick of all I had!
It's Sunday here, I'm in the south-west corner of Australia.
It really has been nice to meet you, and welcome to LOP!

FreedomStands wrote:

I'm really glad you like the music! The quality of the actual mp3 files is much better, and I have some songs I didn't put up there that I really enjoy. If you ever get skype someday, I'd love to send you some music as well. You can enter the website by clicking the NTR and then the I-MJ or whatever page has some of the artwork I mentioned!

kalamity kool wrote:

Wow, that's very original!

I have to be honest, and ask you if you believe in violent ways to bring in the Kingdom of God?
Excuse me if it offends, I don't think you do, from what I understand so far..
and I do genuinely like the artwork.

************

FreedomStands wrote:

I'll answer from a specifically Qur'anic perspective if that is what you were asking for?

Contrary to popular belief and the activities connectec to purported muslims as presented by the media, the Qur'an does not allow random acts of violence, nor is there an idea present of those who follow the Qur'an having to bring it to people violently or to induce the Kingdom of God upon the Earth.

The Qur'an is very clear when it comes to the conditions of war or violence, and these relate strictly to self defense. When war is openly declared and people seek to directly kill you, the Qur'an gives permission to defend yourself and fight oppression. A Muslim is never allowed to declare war or start a war or perform any act of aggression such as hitting a person outside of personal self defense. The Qur'an even speaks against raising your voice and shouting unless in dire need or in self defense.

The Qur'an also states that in seeking retribution for an act of violence, that forgiveness is better than the policy of "an eye for an eye", and to have mercy on people, just as the muslim seeks mercy from God. Almost every chapter of the Qur'an (called surahs) start with "In the name of God, the Beneificient, the Merciful". The concept of mercy and peace is thoroughly ingrained throughout the Qur'an, where the greeting of muslims has always been "Peace be upon you".

The Qur'an further states that there is "no compulsion in religion" and thus, one is not allowed to try to force religion on another, nor can they.

The Qur'an states repeatedly to leave disbelievers alone, and states that it is not the responsibility of anyone to convince people of religion or make them believe. Rather, it instructs Muhammed (who the Qur'an is speaking to) to merely convey the message. If they believe and follow it, it will be to their own benefit. If they do not believe and do not follow it, it will be their own loss.

The Qur'an states that God does not benefit or gain anything from worship or sacrifices, but rather, these things benefit us. Sacrifices for example, were not to be wasted, but are to feed the poor. Worship is for our own peaceful rememberance of God, and God is ready to respond and help anyone.

Bringing "The Kingdom of God" is not within the power of anyone but God alone according to the Qur'an, and it is not the responsibility of anyone to bring it by any means, nor is it possible to bring or rush forward. Judgmenet day is at a set time, and nobody can bring it forward or set it back, the Qur'an says. Similarly with death. All deaths are at exactly the time, and exactly the place they are supposed to happen, in the way they are supposed to happen. All these things are controlled by God alone, and so it is only God that one can ask for help from.

In the Qur'an, it was also never the responsibility of people to harm or destroy any civilizations.

The Qur'an has no generational curses that blame children for the crimes of their ancestors, nor any concept of original sin. The Qur'an never calls for the genocide of any people. The Qur'an states clearly that all people are equal, and men and women are also equal, judged equally according to their individual conduct, that only they themselves are responsible for what they do. The Qur'an is clear that there are no people who are better than other people, or races, but that we are the human race who God created, the best in conduct individually is the better person. People often think women are subordinate to men in Islam because of mistranslations or misinterpretations of the Qur'an, it is clear that women and men are equal, judged equally, but are obviously different in their responsibilities.

For example a female can give birth to children, and so men are asked to help in caring for children by assisting their wife and child financially. Women are allowed to work and do everything normally. Women are allowed to divorce their husbands, nor can they be held in marriage against their will, nor are there any marriages determined by anyone other than the female ultimately. These kinds of rights for women were unheard of at the time, everywhere in the world. Yet Islam is attacked regulary as oppressive to women. Even polygamy isn't allowed, the Qur'an is clear that multiple wives can not be treated equally and an individual should only have one.

All the animals, and even the planets and the sun and the moon are considered alive and having souls, and are surrendered to God. Thus, it encourages a deep respect for all nature and all the creations of God. For example, I don't even kill insects, and I try to save them from water or other circumstances whenever I can.

This is because in the Qur'an, animals and even insects are depicted as having full intelligence and personality, being "people" and sometimes "communities" just like humans. Solomon in the Qur'an is given the miraculous ability to understand the communication of animals, and so even hears the communication of ants when they send a distress signal to one another on his approach. The Qur'an specifies that the ant is female, which is accurate since all worker ants are females.

The Qur'an has amazing science in it, not known to the world at the time until only recently. This science is not codified or hidden, but is laid out apparent as proof for the Qur'an. For example it discusses the formation of the human embryo in the womb, things deep in outerspace, deep in the earth, and many other amazing things that science has only recently discovered.

So in conclusion, from a Qur'anic perspective, one can only defend themselves and is not to be an aggressor. It is God who rewards and punishes people. People are asked only to worship God, be kind and gentle, and to do charity.

Though I use the Bible frequently in quotes throughout my thread, I have some major issues with it. The depiction of Prophets in the Qur'an is that of extremely soft hearted and gentle people who were far from cruel, having deep sensitivity and innocence. The depiction of Prophets in the Bible is somewhat different, and when I read those sections of the Bible I'm almost brought to tears. In the Bible, Noah is found drunk and naked and cursing his own child for many generations just for seeing him. Lot's daughters perform incest on him to keep their race pure. Entire groups of people, men, women, children, and even animals are massacred pre emptively. When Saul has mercy on some of the people, he is punished by God and loses his Kingdship to David who is depicted as a mass murderer. Abraham is depicted as lying, and others depicted and tricksters. Sacrifices are depicted as savory for God as if God is eating them. In Christianity it is believed that an innocent man had to be murdered in order to forgive sins.

All of this, I consider terrible slander again God and his devotees. None of these things are in the Qur'an, the Qur'an is full of justice and goodness, rather than insane tyranny. Ironic that the Qur'an is known as a book of terror and terrorists, when it is completely free from the repulsive aspects of the Bible.

So the God I "know" and believe in, and the Prophets I believe in, are all very good, undeniably good. The God never does injustice or asks for cruelty, and instead, punishes the evil doers when the time comes, and otherwise gives everyone much mercy and time to fix their conduct, providing all life with sustenance and guidance. The messengers I believe in were wonderful people, of excellent conduct and morals, who conveyed one message to the world: Worship God Alone and Do Good. That is "Islam".

The Qur'an never requests anything impossible or without reason. So I tend to prefer it over the Bible, though I use the Bible primarilly on the internet to bring people who are already Christian to the practice of worshipping God, as was practiced by early Christians as well. I rarely use the Qur'an online because of the massive hostility towards it, it is one of the most unreasonably abhorred books, though it is completely free from much of the things that could be considered vile in the Bible.

So to finally answer your question:
"do you believe in violent ways to bring in the Kingdom of God?"

No, absolutely not. I believe that only God can bring about such a Kingdom, that only God can punish the unjust truly, and only God can bring about whatever God wants to bring about. Our only option is to seek benefit from the source of all benefit, and that is God alone.

I believe it is absolutely just to allow people to defend themselves, not asking them to sit and let their persons, family, or children to be murdered by being passive. Outside of self defense, I do not believe that anyone has the right or authority to declare war on anyone. If a war is declared and you are being hunted down and oppressed without a way to escape, then you should fight back. Isn't that fair?