Article from Hoopla
Posted by R
January 24 2014
"I'm Strayan and I Love Stayin' Dumb'
'It's un-Australian to wave a flag!..'
Me: Hmmm, her whinge is positively unaustralian, on Australia Day, I'm celebrating our multiculturism and our irreverent attitude (our natural beauty is to be celebrated every day!)
R: Cept her whinge is spot on!.. Call a fig a fig, a spade a spade, and a spatulous device for abrading the surface of the soil a bloody shovel.. That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet; a toad is still a toad and shouldn't be confused with a frog..
R: 26 January should rightly be called "New Holland Day".. If we must honour the soil on which we are so fortunate to dwell on a day dedicated to the foundation of Australia this should by rights be on 1st January.. Or on some future date when we as a nation finally recognise the Aboriginal people of this land in an official TREATY!!!...
Me: Australia Day has moved on from being about 'foundation' in my opinion, to being simply a celebration of what Australia is, and means to her citizens. To reach our potential as a nation, I think it's not a good idea to focus on a historical fact, the date we celebrate it isn't all that important, its now 26th because its become a tradition. Recognition of Aboriginal people in the constitution would be A GREAT THING!
R: If in deed Australia Day serves a benefit other than asserting continuing domination over the original inhabitants of this land, then this should surely include, amongst the beach, barbies, beer celebrations, some soul searching on how we as a nation might "reach our potential" and avoid those atrocities commited in "the national interest" against the very environment we have custodianship of, those wars fought for imperialist corporations in Iraq & Afganastan, our ongoing hypocrisy in not accepting asylum seekers from those very countries we have helped decimate and shameful ignorance, if not complicity, displayed on the world stage in regards to Syria, the Middle East, Sri Lanka, Indonesia and the world in general .. Given the national anthem proclaims in the second verse, "For those who've come across the seas We've boundless plains to share" we should either accept asylum seekers or change the anthem.. I doubt any Australians will be singing the second verse on Australia Day though because most don't even know it exists.. (Strayan and love stayin dumb!) The article points out that Australia Day is being hijacked by a resurgence of flag waving jigoistic boganism..which now includes fireworks!.. I for one am mostly ashamed by the behaviour of Australia on the world stage as well as in our own backyard and don't want to play any part in a nationalistic display of patriotic fervour.. But that's just me!...
Me: Since I whinge to you about people not continuing debates, I'll add a further two cents to this Ravi firstly conceding that you make some valid criticisms. However, I'd prefer to see one day of the year when there is no negativity, when we are united as a nation to simply celebrate and not rain on the parade. I don't care much for whatever group an Aussie puts themselves in, hippie, bogan, punk, Muslim, Christian, yuppie - I think they should all be able to have a good time on Australia Day in whatever way they like (minus harming others of course) and wave flags and set off fireworks, if that is what expresses their love for this land. The rest of the year, I think more of us should pick the shit out of the policies of the gov and debate like madmen for the values I believe most of us still hold, regardless of our little social group.
R: Ok but that day, ie. Australia Day, should not be 26 January.. This day commemorates the invasion of this land and a war on its original owners that has not been settled with a TREATY or acknowledgement in the constitution.. It is insulting to Aboriginal people who should be rightly recognised in any celebration of the nation..
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/27/australia-day-indigenous-people-are-told-to-get-over-it-its-impossible?commentpage=2
Me: I don't think this writer is speaking for all Aboriginal people, many of whom celebrate Australia as it is now, on Australia Day, while rightfully holding sorrow for the past. I can only see this as a good thing, a positive move for the future, which is still ours to mold. Recognition in the Constitution is something that can be done, while acknowledging the past can never be wiped clean. I think the sites of the massacres should be honoured, and I don't understand why they haven't been...? There is no denying it is a struggle to achieve and make a good life, against the prejudices that still exist, and I'm not sure having some land is all that is needed for all Aboriginal people, we all have self-determination and choose the direction of our lives.
R: When we have a Constitution which recognises Aboriginal people, a TREATY, and a government that promotes socially inclusive policies recognising the contributions of Aboriginal people as integral to the environmentally responsible custodianship of this land for all future generations, then I will celebrate Australia Day... Until that day 26 Jan will remain National Shame Job Day!..
Me: Respect for that one Ravi! Now, if you can come up with a realistic socially inclusive policy, I might be tempted to not celebrate (umm, so much).
R: That's not so hard!.. Funding for an Aboriginal representative body such as ATSIC which little jonnie scrapped.. from wikipedia: "The Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission (ATSIC) (1990–2005) was the Australian Government body through which Aboriginal Australians and Torres Strait Islanders were formally involved in the processes of government affecting their lives. A number of indigenous programs and organisations fell under the overall umbrella of ATSIC. The agency was dismantled in 2004 (by little bastard jonnie) in the aftermath of corruption allegations and litigation. ATSIC was criticised for being dominated by males". Now isn't that a joke given the current govt... and which wadjela govt has not had its share of corruption allegations?..
R: A final word.. Happy Amnesia Day.. Oh shit that's three..
Me: Funding for yet another committee? Ugh. Btw, that's not a policy, they would have to come up with the policies. If you have one, maybe you should campaign for a body of your own, lol. ATSIC really wasn't so good..
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/03/11/1047144969152.html
R: You have sent a link written by Christopher Pyne in the ass.. I cannot and will not read his right wing fascist drivel... I can only suggest you do some deeper research and perhaps dare to talk to an aboriginal person if you want to know more..
Me: Well... I will do some more research and ask a few people, I'll read anything, by anyone, to get both sides of an issue, did you come up with a policy?
R: Well it's better late than never but I think you have a fair way to go to balance your opinion seeing as you seem to have been mostly exposed to the blinkered and unsubstantiated views promoted by fascists like payne.. You could start by viewing John Pilgers film Utopia.. http://www.primewire.ag/watch-2743355-Utopia A reasonable policy is funding a representative body of Aboriginal leaders to develop their own policies in a spirit of self determnation ala ATSIC..
Me: That 'AGE' article was actually the first I've read from Payne, I strive not to be left or right, but to consider the issue at hand. How ironic that while we were debating a national Aboriginal body, they were having a meeting in Perth!http://nationalcongress.com.au/
R: It is no wonder you haven't read anything from Pyne in the ass as nothing he has written is worth reading, being incapable as he is of independent thought outside what he was spoon fed in private school and lacking any coherence outside of "specious arguments" supporting Herbert Spencers theories of class domination.. The piece presented in the Age is not an "article" written by a journalist, it is an exerpt from a sychophantic speech aimed at pleasing his right wing masters.. He is a political monkey dancing for his keep.. and a very generous keep it is at that (the hypocrisy of accustaions of rorting of the system!) For the latest see http://www.crikey.com.au/.../our-education-curriculum.../ Having a political persuasion requires knowledge of the history and philosophy of left and right wing political histories and even a cursory examination may convince you to develop a social conscience and backbone.. Note that the right wing fascists have stripped the funding for the National Congress which was allocated in the 2013 budget..
Me: The National Congress was set up with the intention to be independent from government, and self-funded. Their initial grant in 2010 was 29.2 million over 5 years, their funding is currently 94% gov. I dunno Ravi...if neither of us had heard of them ortheir policies, maybe the money would be better spent in other ways. I do think change will come from individuals working in gov and other key places, rather than from large corporations, education should be the major focus. Back on the Oz day issue - I have a FB Aboriginal friend who works in gov, so I sent him a message asking him about celebrating on Oz day, and he said "I believe we as a people need to celebrate, celebrate our survival, the survival of our culture - our children, our past, and our future. We are indigenous but, we are also Australians." And he reckons to keep the 26th!
R: http://www.apg.org.au/
Me: I think we've come to that point in a debate where we can go round in circles, all I can say in response to Michael Mansell is that if the majority of all Australians do not view the day as based on race, but on Australian-ness, then isn't that what it has become, in reality? It is what we make it, and nothing can fix the errors of the past. I don't feel guilty or responsible for what people with the same colour skin as mine did in the past. It does not make me a racist, or indifferent to the poverty and hopelessness that afflicts so much of the Aboriginal population, and the racism that is a part of that, I will continue to fight against, on all the other days of the year, except the one I keep for celebrating. I've been thinking about Mansell's point that there should be 8 Aboriginal delegates in parliament...it could be a good idea, despite the accusations of non-merit based placements that would ensue, it would certainly give a voice to the first peoples of this land, in all manner of policies, not only racially based ones.
R: Which brings us full circle back to the original post "Strayin and Love Stayin Dumb!"
Me: Oh, I dunno, I've learned a lot from this, thanks for the debate.
R: Continuing to celebrate Australia Day as though that day has cultural integrity perpetuates a grand historical falsehood.. It is akin to celebrating the landing of the British in India as India Day while inviting a few natives along to make it seem as though we've done our bit to make them feel at home.. It is inherently an Anglo centric celebration which makes it by nature not inclusive of this country's cultural diversity.. The Mabo decision of the High Court recognised that "Australia/New Holland" was not terra nullius and in fact belonged to Aboriginal people.. Therefore 26 Jan truly is Invasion Day and given that a TREATY has yet to be signed nor a Constitution written that even acknowledges these facts, it is insenstive to lend support to this myopic and culturally bigotted celebration.. The abolition of slavery, the downfall of the British in India, civil rights in America, the end of apartheid in South Africa, etc etc requires people to get out of their easy chairs and question the "norms" of the day.. It is always easier to be on the side of the staus quo.. I look forward to being able to celebrate Australia Day on a day that deserves celebration!..
R: A few more reasons why I can't support Australia Day under its' present guise...http://thedamiansmith.tumblr.com/.../7521.../give-me-liberty Should I shut up now?..
Me: Thinking some more about this, and talking to people, you have me nearly changing my mind Ravi, but I'm still conflicted on it, the 26th. Jan 1788 does not fit with what an 'invasion' is, there were no battles, no deaths, those occurred later, and in the bigger world picture, its inconceivable that history would have stood still and Australia would have been left to the Aboriginal people. The French were waiting to land at the time too, so someone would have landed and started to make use of the land they saw as available, because there were no signs of cultivation or habitation, as ignorant as that attitude now is to us. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_Day. However, if all the Aboriginal people were polled, and the majority wanted the date changed, I would support it, as a sign of solidarity. Coming up with a new date is difficult, having it on Jan 1 would lose its significance in the midst of New Year revelry.
"Anyone else refuse to be left or right?" K.Kool @ Godlike Productions.com
Posted by R
January 24 2014
"I'm Strayan and I Love Stayin' Dumb'
'It's un-Australian to wave a flag!..'
Me: Hmmm, her whinge is positively unaustralian, on Australia Day, I'm celebrating our multiculturism and our irreverent attitude (our natural beauty is to be celebrated every day!)
R: Cept her whinge is spot on!.. Call a fig a fig, a spade a spade, and a spatulous device for abrading the surface of the soil a bloody shovel.. That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet; a toad is still a toad and shouldn't be confused with a frog..
R: 26 January should rightly be called "New Holland Day".. If we must honour the soil on which we are so fortunate to dwell on a day dedicated to the foundation of Australia this should by rights be on 1st January.. Or on some future date when we as a nation finally recognise the Aboriginal people of this land in an official TREATY!!!...
Me: Australia Day has moved on from being about 'foundation' in my opinion, to being simply a celebration of what Australia is, and means to her citizens. To reach our potential as a nation, I think it's not a good idea to focus on a historical fact, the date we celebrate it isn't all that important, its now 26th because its become a tradition. Recognition of Aboriginal people in the constitution would be A GREAT THING!
R: If in deed Australia Day serves a benefit other than asserting continuing domination over the original inhabitants of this land, then this should surely include, amongst the beach, barbies, beer celebrations, some soul searching on how we as a nation might "reach our potential" and avoid those atrocities commited in "the national interest" against the very environment we have custodianship of, those wars fought for imperialist corporations in Iraq & Afganastan, our ongoing hypocrisy in not accepting asylum seekers from those very countries we have helped decimate and shameful ignorance, if not complicity, displayed on the world stage in regards to Syria, the Middle East, Sri Lanka, Indonesia and the world in general .. Given the national anthem proclaims in the second verse, "For those who've come across the seas We've boundless plains to share" we should either accept asylum seekers or change the anthem.. I doubt any Australians will be singing the second verse on Australia Day though because most don't even know it exists.. (Strayan and love stayin dumb!) The article points out that Australia Day is being hijacked by a resurgence of flag waving jigoistic boganism..which now includes fireworks!.. I for one am mostly ashamed by the behaviour of Australia on the world stage as well as in our own backyard and don't want to play any part in a nationalistic display of patriotic fervour.. But that's just me!...
Me: Since I whinge to you about people not continuing debates, I'll add a further two cents to this Ravi firstly conceding that you make some valid criticisms. However, I'd prefer to see one day of the year when there is no negativity, when we are united as a nation to simply celebrate and not rain on the parade. I don't care much for whatever group an Aussie puts themselves in, hippie, bogan, punk, Muslim, Christian, yuppie - I think they should all be able to have a good time on Australia Day in whatever way they like (minus harming others of course) and wave flags and set off fireworks, if that is what expresses their love for this land. The rest of the year, I think more of us should pick the shit out of the policies of the gov and debate like madmen for the values I believe most of us still hold, regardless of our little social group.
R: Ok but that day, ie. Australia Day, should not be 26 January.. This day commemorates the invasion of this land and a war on its original owners that has not been settled with a TREATY or acknowledgement in the constitution.. It is insulting to Aboriginal people who should be rightly recognised in any celebration of the nation..
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/27/australia-day-indigenous-people-are-told-to-get-over-it-its-impossible?commentpage=2
Me: I don't think this writer is speaking for all Aboriginal people, many of whom celebrate Australia as it is now, on Australia Day, while rightfully holding sorrow for the past. I can only see this as a good thing, a positive move for the future, which is still ours to mold. Recognition in the Constitution is something that can be done, while acknowledging the past can never be wiped clean. I think the sites of the massacres should be honoured, and I don't understand why they haven't been...? There is no denying it is a struggle to achieve and make a good life, against the prejudices that still exist, and I'm not sure having some land is all that is needed for all Aboriginal people, we all have self-determination and choose the direction of our lives.
R: When we have a Constitution which recognises Aboriginal people, a TREATY, and a government that promotes socially inclusive policies recognising the contributions of Aboriginal people as integral to the environmentally responsible custodianship of this land for all future generations, then I will celebrate Australia Day... Until that day 26 Jan will remain National Shame Job Day!..
Me: Respect for that one Ravi! Now, if you can come up with a realistic socially inclusive policy, I might be tempted to not celebrate (umm, so much).
R: That's not so hard!.. Funding for an Aboriginal representative body such as ATSIC which little jonnie scrapped.. from wikipedia: "The Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission (ATSIC) (1990–2005) was the Australian Government body through which Aboriginal Australians and Torres Strait Islanders were formally involved in the processes of government affecting their lives. A number of indigenous programs and organisations fell under the overall umbrella of ATSIC. The agency was dismantled in 2004 (by little bastard jonnie) in the aftermath of corruption allegations and litigation. ATSIC was criticised for being dominated by males". Now isn't that a joke given the current govt... and which wadjela govt has not had its share of corruption allegations?..
R: A final word.. Happy Amnesia Day.. Oh shit that's three..
Me: Funding for yet another committee? Ugh. Btw, that's not a policy, they would have to come up with the policies. If you have one, maybe you should campaign for a body of your own, lol. ATSIC really wasn't so good..
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/03/11/1047144969152.html
R: You have sent a link written by Christopher Pyne in the ass.. I cannot and will not read his right wing fascist drivel... I can only suggest you do some deeper research and perhaps dare to talk to an aboriginal person if you want to know more..
Me: Well... I will do some more research and ask a few people, I'll read anything, by anyone, to get both sides of an issue, did you come up with a policy?
R: Well it's better late than never but I think you have a fair way to go to balance your opinion seeing as you seem to have been mostly exposed to the blinkered and unsubstantiated views promoted by fascists like payne.. You could start by viewing John Pilgers film Utopia.. http://www.primewire.ag/watch-2743355-Utopia A reasonable policy is funding a representative body of Aboriginal leaders to develop their own policies in a spirit of self determnation ala ATSIC..
Me: That 'AGE' article was actually the first I've read from Payne, I strive not to be left or right, but to consider the issue at hand. How ironic that while we were debating a national Aboriginal body, they were having a meeting in Perth!http://nationalcongress.com.au/
R: It is no wonder you haven't read anything from Pyne in the ass as nothing he has written is worth reading, being incapable as he is of independent thought outside what he was spoon fed in private school and lacking any coherence outside of "specious arguments" supporting Herbert Spencers theories of class domination.. The piece presented in the Age is not an "article" written by a journalist, it is an exerpt from a sychophantic speech aimed at pleasing his right wing masters.. He is a political monkey dancing for his keep.. and a very generous keep it is at that (the hypocrisy of accustaions of rorting of the system!) For the latest see http://www.crikey.com.au/.../our-education-curriculum.../ Having a political persuasion requires knowledge of the history and philosophy of left and right wing political histories and even a cursory examination may convince you to develop a social conscience and backbone.. Note that the right wing fascists have stripped the funding for the National Congress which was allocated in the 2013 budget..
Me: The National Congress was set up with the intention to be independent from government, and self-funded. Their initial grant in 2010 was 29.2 million over 5 years, their funding is currently 94% gov. I dunno Ravi...if neither of us had heard of them ortheir policies, maybe the money would be better spent in other ways. I do think change will come from individuals working in gov and other key places, rather than from large corporations, education should be the major focus. Back on the Oz day issue - I have a FB Aboriginal friend who works in gov, so I sent him a message asking him about celebrating on Oz day, and he said "I believe we as a people need to celebrate, celebrate our survival, the survival of our culture - our children, our past, and our future. We are indigenous but, we are also Australians." And he reckons to keep the 26th!
R: http://www.apg.org.au/
Me: I think we've come to that point in a debate where we can go round in circles, all I can say in response to Michael Mansell is that if the majority of all Australians do not view the day as based on race, but on Australian-ness, then isn't that what it has become, in reality? It is what we make it, and nothing can fix the errors of the past. I don't feel guilty or responsible for what people with the same colour skin as mine did in the past. It does not make me a racist, or indifferent to the poverty and hopelessness that afflicts so much of the Aboriginal population, and the racism that is a part of that, I will continue to fight against, on all the other days of the year, except the one I keep for celebrating. I've been thinking about Mansell's point that there should be 8 Aboriginal delegates in parliament...it could be a good idea, despite the accusations of non-merit based placements that would ensue, it would certainly give a voice to the first peoples of this land, in all manner of policies, not only racially based ones.
R: Which brings us full circle back to the original post "Strayin and Love Stayin Dumb!"
Me: Oh, I dunno, I've learned a lot from this, thanks for the debate.
R: Continuing to celebrate Australia Day as though that day has cultural integrity perpetuates a grand historical falsehood.. It is akin to celebrating the landing of the British in India as India Day while inviting a few natives along to make it seem as though we've done our bit to make them feel at home.. It is inherently an Anglo centric celebration which makes it by nature not inclusive of this country's cultural diversity.. The Mabo decision of the High Court recognised that "Australia/New Holland" was not terra nullius and in fact belonged to Aboriginal people.. Therefore 26 Jan truly is Invasion Day and given that a TREATY has yet to be signed nor a Constitution written that even acknowledges these facts, it is insenstive to lend support to this myopic and culturally bigotted celebration.. The abolition of slavery, the downfall of the British in India, civil rights in America, the end of apartheid in South Africa, etc etc requires people to get out of their easy chairs and question the "norms" of the day.. It is always easier to be on the side of the staus quo.. I look forward to being able to celebrate Australia Day on a day that deserves celebration!..
R: A few more reasons why I can't support Australia Day under its' present guise...http://thedamiansmith.tumblr.com/.../7521.../give-me-liberty Should I shut up now?..
Me: Thinking some more about this, and talking to people, you have me nearly changing my mind Ravi, but I'm still conflicted on it, the 26th. Jan 1788 does not fit with what an 'invasion' is, there were no battles, no deaths, those occurred later, and in the bigger world picture, its inconceivable that history would have stood still and Australia would have been left to the Aboriginal people. The French were waiting to land at the time too, so someone would have landed and started to make use of the land they saw as available, because there were no signs of cultivation or habitation, as ignorant as that attitude now is to us. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_Day. However, if all the Aboriginal people were polled, and the majority wanted the date changed, I would support it, as a sign of solidarity. Coming up with a new date is difficult, having it on Jan 1 would lose its significance in the midst of New Year revelry.
"Anyone else refuse to be left or right?" K.Kool @ Godlike Productions.com
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