OTOC and KK - pm's at the Lunatic Outpost June 2011

[unedited]



OTOC
Apparantly Evil.
06-19-2011 02:30 AM

I'm keeping this reply out of the thread.

I have no emotions, never have had any.

I don't feel sadness or joy, I have no empathy.

I have my logic, my cold, hard restless friend.

The only thing I've ever felt is fear, fear of death. But when that fear is confronting, when I destroyed the barriers in my mind and saw the truth of it all.. (that everything has no meaning).

Death lost its fear, It lost its grip on me, because at that moment I knew humility, I saw myself in the eyes of the universe and I became free of my ego, my will for power, I became free from the ideas of god and conflicts between each other.

And I smiled, for I was free.


kalamity kool wrote:


I don't mean to belittle your experience, it is real, and perhaps you don't believe me when I say I have been there, too.
There is nothing wrong with it, logically or ideologically.
But, to me it has been a stage in the journey, a very necessary stage, and
even though now I do believe there is life after death, I'm still afraid of it,
it is natural and human.
Its hard to believe you've only ever felt fear...
It may seem to you as if fear has made me believe as I do, but it was out of my not-believing stage, the one you are in now, that my present belief was born.
In a way, it is like an experiment, you choose what to believe, and observe the results.
The results I've had confirm my belief, so far.

Not sure why you wouldn't want my reply in the thread, but
I guess it is one thing you actually are in control of ;)

Anyway, I hope my best wishes for you carry themselves to you, on the electromagnetic waves which we can't see, yet exist.


OTOC wrote:


Not your reply, mine, I don't like telling people I have no emotions, past experience on that one.

Like here, I say what I believe what I know. And I get all these people coming back to me saying no that isn't so, look at what I have to say, because 'I can help you'.

I did not ask for that, I do not want people who think that they are better than me coming to me to 'enlighten me'.

Fear was not a constant by the way, it's just the only experience I've ever felt.

You say you have been where I am now before and that you 'moved on'.

If you want it... I say, simply, that you found yet another plateau, another piece of land, the feeling of stability, you reached out into uncertainty and brought back some form of 'meaning'. I understand, I really do.

Perhaps something less cold.

Such it is from fruit to tree.

With land around it came to sea.

The bitter wind that whipped the air.

The silent tree now stood bare.

And to the sea the fruit became.

A new world was its game.

The wretched search through instability.

To find a new serenity.

The fruit did find its new home.

It stood atall but it stood alone.

And so the new tree on its island peak.

Came to bare a fruit so weak.

It is not will that guides us to find the land, but a need, A need for identity, you have reached a plateau, because with land there comes a price, a limit to the heights one can reach.

And so cast out your fears and dive deep back into the sea it is where our minds should be.

(I wish people would stop trying to 'help me change my view on life'.)

I know people will disagree with my viewpoint, I'm fine with that, it is more than expected, To most it's not a good place to be.

You say you've been where I am now (again)... I say it is you mind trying to protect you.

I'm happy to agree to disagree..

But let me have a guess and it's just a guess.. 'Everything is connected through a sheet that reaches all dimensions and there is much beyond that which we can sense, and that doubt was thrown up to your mind about life being meaningless because there are parts of ourselves that we do not know about which live in a completely different reality but are our selves and many would think of this as a higher planes of existance such as our spirit and that the death of the body in this plane does not mean the death in the others and that we shall move on to realise this upon our deaths'

Or something like that?


kalamity kool wrote:



Firstly, I need to clear up some assumptions you've made, the biggest one being that I think I'm better than you. I think you are more intelligent than me, and may well be a better person all round, but I wouldn't even bother making such assessments because I know you hardly at all.


OTOC wrote:

Wasn't aimed at you, you were never pushing your beliefs, Here is the quote of yours: "but it just doesn't ring the bell of truth to me."

Here is one from others (I choose these at the beginning of each person specific introduction to the topic)

"If you have time please consider, the writings of jesus"

"You will see janitor. One half second after your body stops working you'll look down upon it and realize that "you" are not your body you are not your brain you are not the sum total of your memories and electrical impulses."

"so that being the case you should at least acknowledge even if in a slight degree you do in fact leave dust changed. "

Was merely venting about how that is what nearly everyone does and the reason behind it.



kalamity kool wrote:



Also, you are a very good writer (but my ego won't concede, better than me, lol)



OTOC wrote:


You judge your own writings? Beyond "that just doesn't sound right"

I don't write for me, for I have already thought that which I have written, and as such it is not my place to judge it because it was not ever meant for me.


kalamity kool wrote:


I respect where you stand on this, and it doesn't affect my life one way or another what you choose to believe, I'm not out to score a life in heaven by converting people, believe it or not, but I do respond to a pain I feel in you, we all have our versions, and I can't resist probing conversations about important things.


OTOC wrote:


That's an assumption, it's assumed empathy, and is not my pain at all, for I have none over this. This only affects me in what some would percieve as a positive manner. I don't consider this topic to be important at all, I find it interesting but important.. no.


kalamity kool wrote:

Your assertion that you don't feel emotions, reminds me of an Asperger's bf I had, it was kinda true, but not so simple.
(I won't delve into that, but if you feel fear, you must be able to feel other emotions as well).


OTOC wrote:


Fear is a base drive that stems from the flight or fight area of the brain, And fear should not be classed as an emotion, it is an instinctual response to any given situation based on survival. At least that is how I see it. And perhaps I should clarify that the only times I have felt it are when my life has been in danger. For example 'When I was set on fire', 'during the fall after I fell off a ski lift' 'When I saw the circket bat coming down onto my head' Things like that. Not things like 'I'm fear I'm going to fail this exam' 'I'm afraid that my girlfriend may leave me' (I can't do many examples, I really don't know)

There is no way we're going to agree on life after death, so I'm happy to disagree, too.


kalamity kool wrote:



We'll find out, anyway!

For me, its not so much a cushion for extinction, when I believed there was nothing, I thought death must be like sleep, so its oblivion, and since I won't be aware of it, its easier to accept.
I've staked my claim to immortality by writing since I first could, I have kids but they are their own people, not 'me'.


OTOC wrote:


I took the simple path of death is like that which we see between our eyes and an object. Hmm although that brings me to another point, of course people can't comprehend nothing and so as a reaction to that the subconscious floods the mind with thoughts of 'darkness' something they know... But still the pathways go dead, there is no activity, we will see, hear, feel, smell, taste, and think nothing. Just nothing at all, snap of the fingers and you're out of existence.


kalamity kool wrote:


Interesting idea, the sheets of reality, but I don't really think there are different realities where parts of us exist.
Certainly, life after death is a different reality, but you won't be living here in this one at the same time.
Scientifically, I don't have the elegant solutions to what happens, but it seems to me that maybe not everyone does get eternal life, nothing in this existence, with its laws, suggests actions don't have consequences.


OTOC wrote:


Fair enough, it was just an island I stopped off on for a little while until my logic overcame that thought, like an hour, was a hard one.

Actions don't have consquences, no matter what action it is, increase the scale it is viewed upon and it means nothing with no consquence :)

kalamity kool wrote:

I am liking talking to you about it, though, so thankyou!

I do wish our discussion was on the board, instead of PM, but its ok too,
I can imagine the responses/attacks if you tell them you don't feel emotions.
From what I've learnt about the brain, the amygdala processes the flight or fight response, along with the basic emotions, maybe yours has been damaged? (please don't take this as an insult)
From something else I read recently, it appears the brain is much more 'plastic' than previously thought, so for example:
"Buddhist monks who do compassion meditation have been shown to modulate their amygdala, along with their temporoparietal junction and insula, during their practice."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amygdala

It seems your thoughts really do affect the structure of your mind.

Just a snap of the fingers, eh?
Couldn't a snap then also restore life?


OTOC wrote:


Unlikely that it was damaged from birth, but if it is the emotional processing part of my brain then it would have been 'neglected' over time.

Yes of course the thoughts effect the structure of a brain, but that is just due to us being able to move neural pathways around a little, like switch junctions... directing electricity to form a more used and conductive pathway for it to travel.

Perhaps I should change 'A snap of the fingers' to.. A quick slice deep into the arteries of the neck and a lot of bleeding... and maybe if you are standing up on some tiles a slip of the feet in a pool of your blood and a cracked open skull later..

Restore life? Ah zombies.

Creating life is easy. Killing life is easy.

Restoring life is impossible... well at least for the moment.



kalamity kool wrote:


Lol, I like the more graphic description!

My assertion still stands though, life goes out in a heart-beat, a breath,
and so it could equally come back in the same way.
So, we're back to the crux of the matter, which is God, since of course restoring life is impossible for men.

You mentioned judging writing, well - I have an internet magazine I'm about to resurrect (see, bingo! life returns ;) maybe you would consider writing for it..?

A neglected amygdala can't be good, are you really, truly adamant that you don't feel passion, love, boredom, jealousy, envy, happiness, sadness etc?
Do you like it this way?

Sending you some yum yum warm tight huggies, on the ether
I don't care if you can't feel them,
well, I do actually,
but I'll send them anyway.


OTOC wrote:


I see no viable way that death is as fragile as life, So the whole returning from the dead thing doesn't make any logical sense.

I disproved 'god' or 'a higher power' a long time ago, it's not hard, just requires a little critical thinking.

Entirely depends on what the internet magazine is about, ideas, looks, samples, specific age groups etc.

I have no feelings either way about not having any feelings.

And with the hugs, I question them, I know the purpose of them, to lighten ones spirits and make them feel not alone etc. but to me the whole idea of offering someone a hug just sounds like they are saying 'Something in your life I have deemed to be not as good as something in mine, and due to me being in a better place by my judgement on both of us I think that you are weak and in need of attention'. It's just how it sounds to me, lol.


kalamity kool wrote:


I can't see why fragility has to be the determining snap quality.
To me, snaps just happen, lol.

To me, critical thinking leads to God, I can't accept the ridiculous Big Bang,
its quite a fairytale.

And, ok, I get your point about hugs, they do feel good, but I won't send you anymore.
I will tell you more about the mag, though, but not now.


OTOC wrote:


Ah the big bang, always fun. But just as crazy as god.

Although a smaller refined version of it for galaxies makes sense, although the material didn't just appear.

Giant star in the center of the galaxy explodes (well it was just that star to begin with), over time (like the planets were created) the material joined together into much smaller stars etc. ding from massive star to galaxy, also can explain a super massive black hole in the center of the galaxy if indeed there is one, if not then it doesn't matter.

But working that back to where the stars themselves first came from, yes one could say a extremely dense star in the center of the universe etc, but still no explanation as to where it all came from in the first place... I don't buy that an explosion elsewhere was so massive that it ripped through into this universe. For that is just a simple work around for where the matter came from in the first place.

Same as god though, what created that? Or in real terms what was the first thing and how?

So no, I don't buy either of them, god for several more reasons.

Just because it cannot yet be explained fully does not mean we have to decide to choose between other explanations as to what happened.

What's wrong with saying: 'Ah, we got no fucking clue as to what started it all'? Try and try to work it out where the first 'thing' came from.. since it could not of come from anywhere since it was indeed the first thing.

So yeah, A minor question, a simple logic loop.

Basically I don't buy anything that anyone else has thought of for it as of yet and won't just pawn it off on some mystical being (that must of been made at some point if indeed it is real) because we can't explain it.

The whole thing is a fairytale because people just can't work out that simple logic loop.


kalamity kool wrote:


The point about God is that He stretches beyond time and space, not as a thing, but as everything, the fabric of existence.
So, He set off the wave of energy that began the first thing.

There is existence, and non-existence. He is existence, outside Him is nothing.

Of course its incomprehensible, and illogical, too, but it makes the most sense to me.

Still the simple question stands of how it came to be?

Because it is only logical that everything starts somewhere, and what created it.


OTOC wrote:


I cannot trust that which is not logical and as such the whole idea sounds to me as though people cannot leave it as an un-answered question and so choose to believe in something illogical instead of facing the facts.

"I can't work it out so there must be some higher power that created everything and that this higher power has been around since before time anywhere in any dimension in any form of that which we worded as the 'universe' and that must mean that there is some meaning to my life".

I haven't finished thinking about it and if I do not come up with a logical answer in my entire lifetime I still won't side with that 'get-out' clause.


kalamity kool wrote:


Well, actually I do leave it as unanswered, because my belief in God isn't all that bound to His role as the Creator.
I'm ok with not knowing, I think I'll know more when I die
(just a few seconds of knowing, at least, I hope it happens!)

Logic has many faults, not the least being, if everything starts somewhere,
where is the start in a loop?


OTOC wrote:


Hence the logic loop.

But logic loops are literally just a sign of unfinished thought.

I'm ok with not knowing, because I know it doesn't mean anything anyway :)

I trust logic even if it has unfinished thought attached. Because it is not the logic that is faulty but the lack of knowledge that alters the human perception on it.

Of course that is also why I'm stubborn, Happy to accept that other people see things a different way, but my mind will never be changed with anything but logic.

And hope, another thing I have never felt ;). I do understand it though.


kalamity kool wrote:


Yeah, and I understand your umm..obsession with logic
;)
even though to me it's just a
capacity our brains have. A useful capacity for sure, limited, but not faulty.
I don't have as much faith in it as you do, the unfinished will remain always unfinished, and leave too much unanswered to satisfy my curiosity.

But, each to his own, I'll stubbornly stick to what I think, it has its own momentum, and doesn't keep doing that mad looping thing :)


OTOC wrote:


Well I can't judge things by how I feel about them. Lol.

What is left but logic?

And the unanswered will only remain for as long as it takes to answer it.


kalamity kool wrote:

Apart from logic and feeling, there is just..
thinking about things
it can yield amazing results!

The unanswered may never be satisfactorily answered, if the answerer can't get to the truth.


OTOC wrote:


The truth is simple, there is no reason to find the answer to that question because simply put the answer would be meaningless.

Much like life ;)

kalamity kool wrote:


Well, I was speaking more generally, but your answer reminds me why logic frustrates me, lol.

And...au contraire, life is full of meaning.



OTOC wrote:



Name a single one that time will not destroy. ;)


kalamity kool wrote:


Ahh, you're more of a dreamer than I thought, after all Mr Janitor!

The fact that meaning exists in the present moment does not mean meaning doesn't exist ;)

(omfg!, lol)


OTOC wrote:


That sentence doesn't make sense.

Did you mean: "The fact that meaning does not exist in the present moment does not mean meaning doesn't exist ;)"?

Again a lead on from 'doubt'.

"Oh yes, although it may not seem like there is meaning to my life, does not mean that anything I do in my life does not have an effect on the future to other peoples lives when there is meaning"...

Of course that then directly relates back to my life in which would mean that there is meaning to it. And why because our brains say that there is doubt because there are things we don't know.

Yet the point still stands that time will end eventually and anything that has been done will not leave any mark, anything for the future when there is no future.

Simply put, we will become extinct and everything we have done will be destroyed, which means in realistic terms, not some fantasy, that there is no meaning to our lives

Simple and effectve logic.